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Long : 4.30664 E (004° 18' 24'' E)                              
Lat : 52.05249 N (52° 03' 09'' N)

QTH locator : JO22db
ITU Region 1
ITU Zone: 27
CQ Zone: 14
DXCC zone: 263

send me an email     Write2Me Gastenboek 

The Netherlands
Les Pays Bas
Die Niederlande
Los Países Bajos
I Paesi Bassi




Welcome to the PD3TRU & PC4Y webpage



Map showing my location in The Netherlands (Europe)


Glossary of terms of the above Solar-Terrestrial Data. In brief: High SFI (> 100) and low K (< 4) are providing for good HF DX conditions.

Number of countries (entities) worked

My career started as a wireless officer. I have done that from 1965 - 1974, serving on board freighters and passenger liners like the s/s Statendam and the (old) s/s Nieuw Amsterdam. So 'wireless' is rather familiar.

come inI did my N exam in 2011. My call sign then was PD3TRU. The first QSO with my legacy and vintage YAESU FT-7 was on april 23rd 2011 at 09:15 UTC with F8CSL. A memorable day to reach the middle of France with only 10 Watts in the antenna. It was my first QSO after I stopped being a 'sparks' 37 years ago. A true adrenaline boost. On March 5th 2014 I successfully passed my F exam. From here on my call sign is PC4Y. I have chosen PC4Y for a reason: my first ship I worked on as an independent R/O was the KNSM m/v ATTIS with call sign PCVY.  For nostalgia reasons I just added one dot to the V and made it a 4 in CW language. The button below gives access to the F study I did with the help of the VERON ham radio club and the very useful help from PA0WV.

F-exam issues 

Some four or five spots in the above map are incorrect, like the one in Alaska and the one in the Gulf of Guinea. Apparently these guys have their coordinates incorrect in their account. It didn't help to adjust their locator coordinates afterwards.

Ask Dave

Clicking on the above button gives access to a series of interesting
HAM Radio topics and answers from Dave Kesler KE0OG

My logbook is updated in HamRadioDeLuxe with daily updates to LoTW,, eQSL, and QRZCQ. LoTW clearly gives the most QSL's but no QSL cards. eQSL gives nice electronic QSL cards and is giving disappointing results w.r.t. QSL's. Some figures: On 1 March 2017 I have made 5169 QSO's from both the PD3TRU and PC4Y call signs. I received 1692 QSL's from LoTW (32,7%), 1465 eQSL cards (28,4%) and 966 confirmed QSO's from (18%).

Some of my latest activities during the past months.Latest days now on top as per request from many visitors J

Wednesday 12 December 2018. The CQ WW CW contest (RAW) results:

Single-Op Low All Bands - PC4Y

Country (PA): #15 of 26 

10 PA3CDN..........40,716  
11 PA0SKP..........37,392
12 PA5P............33,516
13 PB0ACU..........32,072
14 PA0SIM..........28,013
15 PC4Y............27,648
16 PA1FJ...........20,758
17 PA0WKI..........18,988
18 PD0WR...........14,742
19 PE2JMR..........13,888
20 PA3HGP..........13,568
So I ended #15 or the 26 Dutch participants. Only 26 Dutch participants?
There must have been many more if I believe the comments on Facebook.
But may be they didn't bother to send the logs. Or there may have been
many more in other categories i.e. multi operator, high power etc.
Continent: #534 of 841 

529 UY3MW...........28,514
530 HB9HQX..........28,512
531 UT2DW...........28,420
532 DL2HWI..........28,254
533 PA0SIM..........28,013
534 PC4Y............27,648
535 EA4CRP..........27,540 
536 RM2R............27,392 
537 DK5KF...........27,334 
538 DF1GRA..........27,126 
539 RT1L............27,028
And # 534 of 841 continental participants.
World: #864 of 1532 

859 DL2HWI..........28,254
860 JA1CHY..........28,035
861 PA0SIM..........28,013
862 KB8TL...........27,976
863 KA3EHL..........27,742
864 PC4Y............27,648
865 EA4CRP..........27,540 
866 K7MM............27,400 
867 RM2R............27,392 
868 DK5KF...........27,334 
869 NM1J............27,200
And # 864 of 1532 World wide participants. All together not bad given the
fact I only participated a few hours all together, spread over two days.

Monday 3 December 2018. Below are my CW results of the Dutch PA trophy contest of 10 and 11 November. I didn't even end last, but nr. 43 of the 47 contesters.

Nbr Call Reg. QSO 80 Mult80 QSO 40 Mult40 TotQSO TotMlt Score
43. PC4Y R18    13      13          10        9          23          22            506

It was fun though despite I only participated a very short time.

Nbr Call Reg. QSO 80 Mult80 QSO 40 Mult40 TotQSO TotMlt Score
64. PC4Y R18     3         3          7         4           10           7             70

Above are the results of the SSB portion of the PA trophy contest. And here I ended last on the list. Quite an achievement. I even joined in even a shorter period. Curious to find out how I did with the CQWWCW contest of 24 and 25 November.

There was no activity in the previous week as we spent some time in the neighbourhood of Zutphen; a small town near Deventer, but with a very ancient history.

Weekend 24 and 25 November 2018. The 'infamous' CQWWCW contest. I used the N1MM logger to make the log list. Super programme for this contest. I worked for two and a half hour on Saturday and two hours on Sunday. And I had 181 QSO's: Non-assisted! I worked the 15, 20, 40, 80 and 160 meter bands. Many US stations, also west coast and counties like Texas, Illinois, Missouri, New Mexico. I also worked Surinam PZ5T which was a new DX for me. Very busy contest and I bet many worked ASSISTED. My CLAIMED-SCORE: 27648. On 1 December 2018 the final results will be available.


 Above a few examples of Dutch participants of the CQWWCQ contest.

Weekend 17 and 18 November 2018. Joined the Bulgarian LXDX contest for a short period. Had some QSO's in the 20, 40 and 80 meter bands. Uploaded the log successfully.

A new flag has been added: Egypt. I now have a total of 128 flags. I believe I have had one QSO with Egypt some time ago.




Friday 16 November 2018. Upgraded my MRdLuxe to the latest version without problems. Also installed N1MM for contests especially for the upcoming CQ WW DX (CW) in the last weekend of November. I have found HamRadiodeLuxe to be less pleasant for contests. N1MM instead seems to be especially build for contests. All I will have to do is to upload my N1MM logs into my HRdLuxe logbook, but that is no real hassle. I am still investigating the AutoHotkey of N1MM in order to use the speed buttons, but that is only extra. I don't really need them for the contest. The QRZ button is a nice feature.

I have also printed the QSL labels in HRdLuxe in order to send my hard copy QSL cards. It was a full box again. One of the later versions of HRdLuxe turned out to have improved the printing feature of the QSL labels. The settings can now be done in centimetres rather than inches. So printing was a lot easier than with the previous printing batch.

Weekend 10 and 11 November 2018. Joined the 2018 PA trophy contest; CW on Saturday and SSB on Sunday. It all was done in between a variety of other pursuits but it was nice. The contest was held only on the 80 and 40 meter bands. I used the contest mode in HRDluxe but I had forgotten to add the STX and SRX fields in order to properly convert from ADIF to Cabrillo. So in the end I downloaded the recommended logging programme VERONPAB2018 and retyped the logs into this programme where after I could successfully upload both files; one for CW and one for SSB. The initial results can be seen on: from 1 December 2018 onwards.

I also received my certificate for having worked at least one hundred 'Maidenhead grid squares'. I now have this for both my PD3TRU and PC4Y calls.

Tuesday 30 October 2018. It again has been a while. Spent a week away from home with children and grand children. The station on board the ss Rotterdam will be using the PA60HAL call sign in stead of the PI4HAL call sign. PA60HAL is a special event call commemorating the launch of the ship 60 years ago. We will be using that call sign until the end of 2019 as we also give special attention to the maiden voyage of the ship in September 2019. A nice QSL card has been developed, both hard copy and eQSL. And the PI4HAL newsletter for November was launched.

Saturday 22 September 2018. DARES nationwide exercise named Enigma. The aim: nationwide coverage with VHF/UHF stations some of which acting as relay station. The SIGCO team of which I am part was directed to Zwolle in order to act as a relay station between Westerbork and Kootwijk. Examining the topology I found Zwolle to be situated too low in order to work both Westerbork and Kootwijk. So with the help of an acquaintance in the Defence organisation we gained access to a military terrain under Zwolle at a place called Oldenbroek (near 't Harde). That terrain has an elevation of about 60 meters. So we made a set up of two independent stations; one working Westerbork and one working Kootwijk. In addition we had a Winlink station. The exercise worked fine. We relayed messages from Westerbork that acted as a DRCC to Kootwijk who had to send the messages to the DLCC in Oegstgeest eventually. We had quite some rain to cope with but all worked fine. At 13.30 hours local time we were told the exercise was over and we all could dismantle our set ups and return home.

Pictures of our set up at the Woldberg near 't Harde. We were on top at the so called Knobbel. Some 60 meters above sea level.

Friday 21 September 2018. The PI4HAL shack was in use by the International Police Association (IPA) who had a conference on board the ship. For a whole week. They worked the shack with call PI6IPA. They made 222 QSO's two of which were made using the AO91 and AO92 amateur satellites.

Thursday 13 September 2018. Worked the 20, 40, 80 and 160 meter bands in de early evening in CW and SSB modes. All within Europe. Hadn't worked the station for a while so it was good to see all is still working fine.

Tuesday 21 August 2018. Annual maintenance of the external antenna system: lowering mast; replaced the rusted snap hooks for the guying; inspected the insulators and the dipole ribbon cable (matching section) connection to the actual antenna wiring. Fixed the strain relief of the VHF/UHF coax cable near the antenna.

It all took about one hour work including buying the new snap hooks, this time I have chosen the stainless steel version.

The guying was tensioned again and both antennas (VHF/UHF and HF) were tested and found to be okay.

Click on the pictures to enlarge.


Sunday 19 August 2018. Went sailing on the Haringvliet waters with the Dehler 37 of Ger Rossel PC3GER together with Wim Serry PA3CUJ, both mates on board the ss Rotterdam. Wind force 5 Southwest. Great!

This is not a picture of Ger's Dehler 37 ; merely an impression of the joy of sailing

Wednesday 25 July 2018. Worked the PI4HAL shack with temperatures well over 30oC. Quite a few visitors this day. Conditions were moderate.

Tuesday 24 July 2018. Worked JH1HD in the afternoon. It has been quite a while since I have been able to work the Far East. We were both RST 559 but workable. In CW on 14,038 MHz.

Saturday 21 July 2018.
A new flag has been added in my visitors page: Bahrain.

I don't recall having had a QSO with Bahrain though. So it must have been a random visit to the site. Nice.

Friday 20 July 2018. I know, I know, I has been too long. I have been away for two weeks on holiday and thereafter lots of other activities kept me busy. I have been in the PI4HAL shack though. And....I have now reached the vintage age of 71. A few QSO's have been made, but nothing spectacular. DX conditions are still up for improvement. And we had a DARES event at the SAR in Katwijk last week Saturday.

Monday 18 June 2018. Installed Ham Radio de Luxe version with no problems. Made only a few QSO's in the weekend.

Sunday 10 June 2018. It has been a while! Have been away now and then and have been in the PI4HAL shack. Nearby thunder forced me to disconnect my antennas and garden activities had a high priority as weed was overtaking my flowers and so on. So almost no radio activities from my home QTH.

Monday 14 May 2018. Installed Ham Radio de Luxe version without any hassle.

Wednesday 9 May 2018. Spent the day o/b de ss Rotterdam in the PI4HAL shack together with 6 others, 5 of which have been working on the vertical antennas that needed to be replaced including the coax connectors. Florian PB8DX was the lucky one to go all the way up, but he is absolutely not afraid of heights.

The PI4HAL team on the bridge of the ss Rotterdam on May 9th 2018

Florian PB8DX fixing the coax connection on the port side vertical at a height of approximately 65 meters.

Sunday 29 April 2018. Worked GM0HCQ/MM the Royal Research Ship James Clark Ross in the 30 meter band. Operator Mike. Near Cape Finisterre.

Sunday 15 April 2018. Joined the MRD (Maritime Radio Days) for quite a few hours spread over the day. Made a nice number (24) of QSO's in the 20, 30, 40 and 80 meter bands. Good to meet old friends in the air. Yesterday I did the same on board the PI4HAL together with two other guys. Conditions were very moderate then so we were less successful  with the QSO number. But we had a lot of visitors to whom we could tell the story of the Titanic catastrophe; the very reason for the Maritime Radio Days.

Sunday 8 April 2018. Successfully installed version of Ham Radio de Luxe software. Version which was released the day before was believed to have a trojan. It was thoroughly tested and no trojan was found. So - to be absolutely save - the new version was released. Windows Defender didn't like it at first, but I installed it anyway. I have had no problem so far.

Friday 6 April 2018. Spent the day in the PI4HAL shack with my old colleague on board the ss Nieuw Amsterdam Harm de Haan PD2GG. Again we exchanged a lot of memories. I worked the Skanti HF transceiver on the dipole antenna in USB mode (20 meter band) and Harm worked the FT-1000 in CW mode, in the 20 and 40 meter bands using the GPA 50. The other transceivers were temporarily out of service due to 'work-in-progress' on antenna cabling. Two young boys from Belgium were stunned by the abilities of working Morse code.

Wednesday 4 April 2018. Have been off the air for some time. Did have some problems with HRdLuxe after I had deinstalled an old version of MS Office, including MS Access. I then installed the new version MS Office 2017 (including MS Access) but when I started HRdLuxe it said the database MyLogbook could not be found or it could not connect to that database. As I had many other things to do I parked the problem for the time being, but I didn't make any QSO's as a result of that. Today I spent some time trying to solve the problem. I made a new database, imported the backup of my logbook and it looks as if it works. I didn't get MyLogbook back into work though. The new database is now BertLogbook. Haven't found out why MyLogbook could not be retrieved or connected. Well anyway I made a few 20 meter band QSO's today, so I am back.

PC4Y Z60A 2018-03-11 12:03:58 20M CW 14.04500 REPUBLIC OF KOSOVO

Above LoTW confirmation of my QSO with Kosovo; the newly added DXCC

Thursday 22 March 2018. Spent the day o/b ss Rotterdam in the PI4HAL shack. Made a nice number of 20 and 30 meter band QSO's amongst one with 3C0W (Annobon Island, Gulf of Guinee) and one with PJ5/SP9FIH (Saba/St Eustatius, Dutch Antilles). And there was a nice number of visitors.

Saturday 17 March 2018. Russian DX contest. Made a humble number of QSO's in the 15, 20, 40, 80 and 160 meter bands. Only in CW. Quite busy but no problems getting thru. The log was successfully uploaded:

Russian DX Contest 2018
Callsign: PC4Y
Reported QSOs: 50
Received at: 19.03.2018 05:46:47 UTC
Log is successfully submitted.
Thank you for participation in RDXC-2018 and for your log!
RDXC Robot

PC4Y*        SOAB-CW-LP  valid        19.03.2018 05:46

Monday 5 March 2018. I finalized the upgrade of my two PC's to have the Window10 O/S. Received a new TQSL certificate from LoTW and reconfigured my HRdLuxe including the upgrade to version Had to retrieve upload codes and what have you, but it was all in the backup.

Saturday 24 February 2018. Within the regional DARES group we had installed and configured the newly developed and configured Winlink system. Today was the day we tested it with a dedicated DARES Radio Mail server (RMS) and some 6 or 7 testers. The testers worked from their home QTH, three others went to the DRCC in Leiden to check the RMS. At the end we were very enthusiastic as all worked fine, including working thru digipeaters.

Monday 5 February 2018.

A nice new flag from Burkina Faso was added to my flag-list, now showing a total of 121 flags from all over the world. I don't recall to have had a QSO with someone in Burkina Faso though, but that is irrelevant. It again shows our hobby allows to have worldwide contacts without the hassle of travelling.

The ARISS tracker

Real-time position Space Station

Real time tracker

The following frequencies are currently used for Amateur Radio ISS contacts (QSOs):    Voice and SSTV Downlink: 145.800 (Worldwide)
    Voice Uplink: 144.490 for ITU Regions 2 and 3 (The Americas, and the Pacific and Southern Asia)
    Voice Uplink: 145.200 for ITU Region 1 (Europe, Russia and Africa)
    VHF Packet Uplink and Downlink: 145.825 (Worldwide)
    UHF Packet Uplink and Downlink: 437.550
    UHF/VHF Repeater Uplink: 437.80
    UHF/VHF Repeater Downlink: 145.80

Call Signs in Use

The following call signs are available for use on the ISS:

  • Russian: RS0ISS
  • USA: NA1SS
  • European: DP0ISS, OR4ISS, IR0ISS
  • Packet Station Mailbox: RS0ISS-11 and RS0ISS-1

Other call signs may come into use as the station and crew change.


  Some pictures of my shack

Radioshack information: Registration number at Dutch Administration: 6629107.
Above pictures are from May 2011 onwards.

G5RV junior, best suitable for 160, 80, 40, 30, 20, 17, 15, 12 and 10 meter bands with an external ATU and ATU extender, sloping dipole. Highest point apporox. 10 meters. Lowest point: 4 meters.
Diamond V-2000 vertical for VHF/UHF (6 m, 2 m and 70 cm) usage. Height of the antenna: approx. 10 meters.
Diamond X30N VHF/UHF (2 meter and 70 centimeter) antenna for field work.
MFJ1022, active indoor antenna for receive only.

ATU and other auxilliary equipment:
MFJ 925 autotuner, MFJ 914 auto tuner extender.
Tigertronics SignaLInk USB to connect the audio from FT-450 to PC and vice versa. For digi modes.
SWR meter
TNC-X modem for Winlink usage
SignaLink USB for Digi modes
Dummy HF antenna
K-PO power unit
13.8 Volt distribution panel  MFJ-1128
West Mountain Radio PWRgate PG40S, allowing automatic battery backup when regular power fails.
90Ah GEL battery system with USB, Neutrik and Anderson Powerpole connectors.

Ham Radio de Luxe with DM780 software for transceiver control (CAT), logging and digimodes version
Winlink 2000
RMS (Radio Mail Server)

Transceiver (RIG):
max. output: 100 Watt
All amateur bands, incl WARC and (modified for) all maritime bands
CW, SSB, PSK31 and FM on 28 MHz and 50 MHz.

output: 5 Watt
VHF/UHF, 144 MHZ and 430 MHz amateur bands.

hand held for 2 meter maritime, 2 meter amateur and 70 cm amateur bands.
Output 8 Watt
FM and FM Radio bands.

YAESU FT-7900 dualband (2m and 70 cm) transceiver
modes: FM and AM.
Output 50 Watts (2 meter) and 45 Watt (70 cm)
Attached to my TNC-X packet modem to work with Winlink (Paclink) thru the PI8HGL RMS on 144.850 MHz. Try me on

vintage YAESU FT-7
max. output: 10 Watt
bands: 80, 40, 20, 15 and 10 meters
CW, USB and LSB only.

Extra receiver:
Vintage SAILOR R-104
MW, LW and SW 80 and 160 meter bands
AM, A1, A2 and USB only.

Straight CW keys (Junker and Kent), a Begali paddle and a HAM Gadgets Master Keyer MK-1 complete the ability to use Morse during the QSO's. Click here for the CQ serenade

HomeI am a member of the PI4HAL association and work the on board radio-station mostly one day per week, using a Yaesu FT-897, an ICOM-271, ICOM-765, a Skanti and/or a Yaesu FT-1000. The station is on board the former cruise ship s/s Rotterdam and is now a hotel/museum ship operated by WestCord hotels.We have a team of about 10 operators and 5 technicians. We are still looking for more operators as it is our ultimate goal to operate the shack every day of the week. So if you are interested please don't hesitate to visit the PI4HAL site (click on the logo at the left) and send an email. Or you can send me an e-mail. HERE you get access to the PI4HAL newsletters (in Dutch).

I also joined the DARES foundation in 2011 and have already done quite a few field tests. I am part of a so called SIGCO team.

Free counters!


Why is a ship called she ? A ship is called a "she'' because there is always a great deal of bustle around her. There is usually a gang of men about, she has a waist and stays. It takes a lot of paint to keep her good looking. It is not the initial expense that breaks you, it is the upkeep. She can be all decked out. It takes an experienced man to handle her correctly. Without a man at the wheel, she is absolutely uncontrollable. She shows her topsides, hides her bottom and, when coming into port, always heads for the buoys. When you see her lying at the berth, you are proud of her like she is your attractive girlfriend.

          me in the shack     | Gerard in the museum | Wil and Karel at the antenna's

Announcement from Agentschap Telecom:

On 3 December 2015 at 00:00 hrs the 60 meter band became available for Dutch hams.

As per 1 April 2017 significant limitations have become effective though.


15 watt e.i.r.p.




So the usage of the band is now limited to between 5,351.5 MHz and 5,366.5 MHz with a max power of 15 Watt EIRP. We used to have the band from 5,350 MHz to 5,450 MHz with 100 Watt PEP. So I don't think this band is still very attractive for DX. The full legislation can be read HERE (in Dutch). Want to know how much EIRP is in relation to PEP? HERE you can find the calculator.

On Tuesday 24 November 2015 I saw Andorra station C37N had confirmed our QSO in LoTW completing my 100 DX count in my DXCC Award tally from ARRL LoTW. So I have applied for 'the Certificate'. See below.

New LoTW QSLs LoTW QSLs in Process DXCC Credits Awarded Total
Mixed 0 0 100 100 100

At the beginning of this year 2015 I had hoped to achieve this goal this year and so I did even well before the end of the year. Of course most of the credit goes to the hams who have confirmed our QSO's in LoTW. Thanks YL's and OM's.

My chances of getting a 200 DXCC credit Award are small as I have worked most of the DX's I can reach with my current station set up. But who knows? Writing 1 March 2018, I have 113 DXCC's though as a few QSO's from quite some time ago have recently been confirmed, like Bermuda, Cuba, Albania, Ceuta and Melilla, and San Marino. So I am still adding to my list. Like the one from ITU HQ.

The following Dutch call signs are also listed in the ARRL tally for 100 DXes worked.


On the top of the list is 4X4DK who has worked 394 DX entities! I wonder though how that can be as ARRL says they have listed 'only' 340 DX entities. Wim PA0WV explained me how: in time quite a few entities have disappeared (like e.g. the DDR) and others emerged.


See above video to learn more about DX-ing.

Lesson to learn and use Morse code:


Much to my surprise I received a 'worked 100 grid squares' award on my old call sign: PD3TRU, which I have not been using since March 2014. The big black dot in the lower left corner is in fact a golden 'Certified QRZ authentic' stamp that my scanner wasn't able to reproduce apparently J.

Image of QSL card with burning ship ms Prinsendam

Click on this picture about the engine room fire on board the m/s Prinsendam/PJTA and the rescue of well over 500 passengers and crew on 4 October 1980 in the stormy Gulf of Alaska. It still took a week for the ship to sink beyond salvage. Listen to the MP3 audio file with the SOS transmissions starting with the transmission of 12 long dashes of 4 seconds each (twice) to activate the Automatic Alarm Systems which ships had installed those days giving an alarming chime in both the radio room and the bridge during times the R/O was off duty. See also this article. I remember to have sailed under captain Wabeke when he was a first mate on the s/s Nieuw Amsterdam/PGGF.

PC4Y as a rookie R/O on board s/s Nieuw Amsterdam (1969)

Click HERE for ancient Morse transmissions from various coastal stations

All about decibels:


CW Forever


  • You must have at times,
    Thought into the past,
    Where some things go out
    While others last
    What comes to my mind is
    The old Morse code,
    That has weathered the storms
    From any abode.
  • To talk with ones fingers
    Is surely an art,
    Of any info you
    Care to impart,
    In most conditions
    The signals get through,
    While the same about phone
    Is simply not true.
  • Those dits and dahs
    Cut through the trash,
    Of near by noise or
    Lightning's crash.
    To the sensitive ears
    Of the hams receiver,
    Who records this data
    With ardent fever.
  • He knows he's doing
    Something unique,
    (in such poor conditions,
    That's quite a feat)
    To roger the message
    That came off the air,
    These brass pounders
    Sure do have that flair
  • They say Morse ops
    Are a dying breed,
    But don't despair,
    There's always that need,
    That when conditions get rough
    for the new automation,
    Be rest assured,
    There'll be need for your station.
  • CW is dying?
    Believe it never,
    This mode will be 'round
    Forever and ever.
    But one thing is sure,
    What we really need,
    Is to relay our knowledge
    To the younger breed.
  • To carry the torch,
    Long after we're gone,
    To send Morse code
    Through the air like a song.
    When at last,
    Silent keys pull that lever,
    We can rest in peace,
    It's CW forever.




Written by:
Jim Hatherley, WA1TBY (SK)

A promo video about HAM radio. Made in 2014 by VERON. In Dutch. But pictures speak for themselves.